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View Full Version : cam timing vs ecu - Ducati Seattle Rocks



tonupyank
04-14-2007, 10:38 AM
Haven't posted here in a while or even visited. BUT, I'm this is my experience with my bike and injection issues. So, I've have some 'stumbling' issues between 2500-3500rmp (didn't matter what gear) for a long time (2+ years). Bike - 2002 M900ie Current setup - slipons, cut boxtop, K&N, pc3 with custom map. Last summer had a local shop, supposedly know for doing great dynowork, install the PC3 and make a map for my bike. Bike still sputtered, stumbled after apparently being on a dyno for 4 hours to try and 'tune it out'. Shop calls to DNA which said "must be bad ECU - please send 1000 dollars for new one".

This past November I stopped by Ducati Seattle and talked to Marty about the problem. He wasn't all that keen on the open airbox idea for injected bikes, also had some concerns about TPS, TB's, gas levels at header. He thought it would good to have a 'once over check' and since I was 1.5 hours north of Seattle said to give him a call when the weather broke and he'd get me in.

So, yesterday was the day and I was able to get in at Ducati Seattle on a last minute call!!!!. Lucky for me, Marty and Robert had just worked on a bone stock '01 M900ie with similar stumbling issues. Turns out the majority of the problem was cam timing (!!!!). So, after they reset my TPS to 150 instead of 190 w/ butterflies closed, syncd the TB's, and she still ran like poo, we decided to open her up to check the cams, and found my cams to be quite off. They had zeroed out the PC3 (with it's custom map (cough cough - btw - after downloading the map there were NEGATIVE numbers in the map in the lower range....NEGATIVE!! taking OUT fuel in an already lean bike??), tuned the tb's to 4.8CO (at the header, not using the 'banana in the tailpipe' sniffer) and the bike ran GREAT. I mean it's NEVER run like this. So freaking smooth I nearly wet myself with delight!!! I brought it back to the shop and while I was paying the bill, Marty took it for a ride. Came back and said 'there's a little stumbling in the 3K area. I could add a few points down low and smooth it out.....if you want.....' DUH!!! So he hooked up the laptop, added a few points of fuel at the 5 and 10% throttle opening and if that didn't even help MORE!! The response is so smooth it's nutty.

What does this mean?? That if you can't tune the stock stuff, why mess with other bits. Over the past 2.5 years I had tried to use the Techlusion box, twice..nothing. Had TWO different dealers try to 'fix it' during 12K and 18K service (one in Vancouver BC and one that has the dynojet) and neither of those dealers EVER thought about cam timing to help with the stumbling issues or tried to check gases at the header. One response was "it's running a little lean, but I can't get the ecu to respond, but it's ok......".

Granted, maybe they didn't know, or think about cams, (and apparently some of the monsters (97-02) have hoorendous cam timing straight from the factory), but I swore to Robert, Marty and Dave R that I will never take my bike anywhere else (as long as Marty is there) but Ducati Seattle. I'll tolerate the 1.5 hour slog down I-5, fighting soccer moms on cellphones putting on make-up and sipping their chai latte (dead serious on this too.....w/my own 2 eyes, could even SMELL the chai....ok, that parts a lie...... ) to have attention and knowledge like the crew there.

So, while a PC3 smoothes stuff out, it ain't always the answer to the problem. Oh, they also installed a new airbox lid, so I'm back to 'stock'. New thought on injected bikes is the in the airbox direct airflow into the velocity stacks, or something. With carb'd bikes it isn't really that critical. Slipons, K&N, PC3 with 'non-dynojet' custom map and an airbox lid.


Happy Happy Happy.

CINDESMO
04-14-2007, 11:19 AM
I ordered my adjustable pulleys on Friday! The difference is so unbelievable, I don't even really know how to describe it. :happy44:

BTW, nice job scaring service by telling them the bike still ran poorly!:hapdance: Wish I had been there to see your performance!

ToddEichel
04-14-2007, 03:20 PM
Great to know, they're doing a similar thing on my bike right now. Just bought a used ST4 that's had a pretty good stumble that's mostly noticeable at partial throttle, but seems to be there pretty much everywhere. They did what they could to tune the TB's, but still couldn't get it to run smoothly, so they hooked up the computer, and for every reading the ECU is reporting on, it's bouncing back and forth from off the scale low, to off the scale high. Swap it out with a 916 ECU they have hanging around, and everything cleans up. Looks like the aftermarket ECU the previous owner put in there is pretty much hosed. Sounds like they were able to get the TB's dialed in pretty much perfectly, so as soon as my Ferracci ECU gets in, it should be plug and play.

jkester92
04-14-2007, 03:30 PM
I have had almost this same experince with "other shops" Dave/Marty and the Seattle Ducati gang get all my business from now on. They have my 999s running 143 hp with 81lbs of torque and when my 1098 Tri Colore comes in (Dave was sold out) it will be exclusively a Duc Seattle bike also.
:bowdown: :bowdown: Marty :bowdown: :bowdown:

Norton992
04-14-2007, 05:06 PM
Marty is also about to start on my Multi replacing the valve guides and installing a full Staintune system. He said it should pull my arms an inch longer after the 14 tooth front sprocket gets done with me.

It will also be another eye candy bike to add to the rest at Ducati gatherings with the Speedy Moto timing belt covers, Kukri Red pressure plate and five spoke black clutch cover.

Lance

tonupyank
04-14-2007, 09:50 PM
Thanks Cind, it was pretty funny to tease them....especially with Dave standing right there....but I couldn't pull anything on Marty, he must have seen the gleam in my eyes!!!!

Yeah, I just can't say how much I appreciate everyone down there right now. Dave did a great thing by pulling Marty in.

JaredM
04-14-2007, 10:31 PM
I caught wind of this cam timing thing as well! They will be looking at mine next week if they get some slow time :happy57:

Bong
04-15-2007, 07:23 AM
:+1: on the top notch service at Duc Sea!!!!

My 1098S is running smoothly thanks to Marty's attention to detail.

Great bunch of folks there, we are all fortunate to have Duc Sea and Eastside as our local dealers!!!!

Hypermotarded
04-23-2007, 09:58 AM
aw man, this post made my day. i've never worked at a better shop than ducsea and mostly it's just because everyone there actually tries. we've been trying so hard to make our place the best, to do it right, and i love to hear about it when we make someone happy. thanks.

CINDESMO
04-25-2007, 02:36 PM
Today I got to test ride my bike with my newly adjusted cam timing pulleys. Yup, that 15 minutes of rain was exactly when I was out riding. During my test ride I had the pleasure of experiencing several stop lights. Each time the bike was super smooth. I also rode it in fifth at about 3500rpm and couldn't even tell that I was in the wrong gear. Tomorrow night hopefully I will get to ride the commute home and give more ride report. So far - two big thumbs up.

Big Yay to Marty! :bowdown:

ToddEichel
04-25-2007, 02:50 PM
Just got my ECU in, they're working on getting it tuned right now, hopefully I'll be riding mine soon, too. It's been a long three weeks....

mostrorosso
04-25-2007, 06:37 PM
Today I got to test ride my bike with my newly adjusted cam timing pulleys. Yup, that 15 minutes of rain was exactly when I was out riding. During my test ride I had the pleasure of experiencing several stop lights. Each time the bike was super smooth. I also rode it in fifth at about 3500rpm and couldn't even tell that I was in the wrong gear. Tomorrow night hopefully I will get to ride the commute home and give more ride report. So far - two big thumbs up.

Big Yay to Marty! :bowdown:

CINDESMO,

I'm glad to hear your bikes running smoooth! DucSea +1!!:)
I've got a couple of questions if you don't mind...

What year and model Monster do you have?
How far off was the timing?

I've got a carb'd '98 M900 and curious about this cam timing problem and how to check it.
I hope to hear your report after a few miles..:)

CINDESMO
04-25-2007, 06:56 PM
CINDESMO,

I'm glad to hear your bikes running smoooth! DucSea +1!!:)
I've got a couple of questions if you don't mind...

What year and model Monster do you have?
How far off was the timing?

I've got a carb'd '98 M900 and curious about this cam timing problem and how to check it.
I hope to hear your report after a few miles..:)

I have a 2000 M900S. The 2000 and earlier models do not have adjustable pulleys so you have to "upgrade" to the 2001 pulleys. Because we already knew that we were going to do the service, Marty did not install new pulleys, check the timing and then adjust the pulleys. So far he has done this service on fuel injected bikes.

Does your bike run rough or have a large flat spot? If not, I don't know if it is something that I would worry about. Technically, I wouldn't classify my bike as having a problem, it is simply improved!

Darkwing
04-25-2007, 07:06 PM
Hmm, this gets me thinking. My old '99 M900 always had the same stumbling issues in the lower RPMs. I threw a lot of money at the stock carbs over several years trying to fix the problem and eventually upgraded to FCRs with no effect. My dad has the bike now so I may have to suggest that he have Ducati Seattle check this out.

What's the approximate service time to have the cam timing checked?

Bill Anderson
04-25-2007, 09:26 PM
Gary Eagan got a brand new 04-ST4s straight from the factory with cam timing problems. It is something else to check if your bike is not running smoothly.

ToddEichel
04-26-2007, 10:22 AM
got the bike back last night. Running perfectly now. Once again, huge props to DucSea!!:happy44:

CINDESMO
04-26-2007, 11:02 AM
Hmm, this gets me thinking. My old '99 M900 always had the same stumbling issues in the lower RPMs. I threw a lot of money at the stock carbs over several years trying to fix the problem and eventually upgraded to FCRs with no effect. My dad has the bike now so I may have to suggest that he have Ducati Seattle check this out.

What's the approximate service time to have the cam timing checked?

I am not sure of the service time because this is something that Marty is still experimenting with. Mine needed to have the pulley upgrade which added time and parts to the equation.

I do know that Marty installed the FCRs on Sonny's 96 900SS and it is (apparently) night and day between them and his old stock carbs. He is an amazing tuner!

CINDESMO
04-26-2007, 11:05 AM
I rode the bike home and then back this morning - it is smooth on the highway, smooth coming up to lights, etc. Basically, it felt more comfortable to ride - I didn't notice a "sweet spot" where the bike was happiest. :happy44:

mostrorosso
04-26-2007, 07:41 PM
I have a 2000 M900S....
...Does your bike run rough or have a large flat spot? If not, I don't know if it is something that I would worry about. Technically, I wouldn't classify my bike as having a problem, it is simply improved!

My bike has a mid-range (3500-5000) lumpy spot, while trying to keep a steady speed with light throttle action. Especially trying to hold speed limit as I ride by leo's.:cool2:


I rode the bike home and then back this morning - it is smooth on the highway, smooth coming up to lights, etc. Basically, it felt more comfortable to ride - I didn't notice a "sweet spot" where the bike was happiest.

This might be what I'm looking for...as for comfort, I'm looking for less herky-jerky around tight low speed corners where my clutch gets a lotta work.

I look forward to your future reports.

Thanks, Mark

CINDESMO
04-27-2007, 11:19 AM
I will keep you posted! I believe JaredM's bike will have the pulleys adjusted next week and also my friend's bike has service scheduled for the third week of May.

JaredM
04-27-2007, 12:02 PM
I will keep you posted! I believe JaredM's bike will have the pulleys adjusted next week and also my friend's bike has service scheduled for the third week of May.

Yes I have been salivating for a while now. I can't wait! :jumping41

jetpilot
04-27-2007, 05:08 PM
I had a similar, if not identical, problem on my ST4S. I bought it with about 1000 miles on it. The previous owner had an open top airbox. Marty suggested going with the stock airbox which cured the evil stumbling. There were no cam timing issues.